Thanks Meryl and Lyn for your responses. I guess we may have to agree to differ.
I felt the need to speak up, though, because the post seemed to assume I had a similar view on this other topic when I joined this site because it focussed on issues of vaccination.
Hearing what you both say, it makes me see we must be wary of seeing ‘narratives’ and (forgive me!) ‘conspiracies’ everywhere even when they’re not there… because we have ourselves become traumatised as a result of our recent experiences. I guess everything is a narrative, but on this issue I think what we see has pretty straightforward differences of outlook and approach. I don’t think the indigenous leaders, people, or us, are being conned or usurped (though I’d be interested to hear examples of how if you think they/we are, ). This issue has been going on so l-o-n-g and it’s just coming to a head in this particular form at this particular stage in the struggle.
I looked with interest at the links you sent, Meryl. No longer reading/watching MSM, I haven’t followed discussion (for the past 2 years) about the Voice, but the differing views both inside and outside the Aboriginal community seem pretty much as expected. Mundine has reason to think a treaty could be more effective, but this has been discussed amongst the indigenous community for ages and I think he’s in a minority, or at least the Voice is what has emerged out of the debate as the most achievable in today’s political climate and therefore the important foot in the door to start walking a new path. Their leaders have emerged though struggle and debate more arduous I reckon than any our representatives go through, and if they hear this is worth going for and working with, I’m with them. They’ve at least got some political leverage and nous.
Obviously some of white Australia dismisses and is fearful of it. It is confronting for all, but I feel it’s an educative and necessary process that could help Australia grow in stature and self respect if we can just let go of grunges and take it on board straightforwardly, the way we are being asked to. There’s a basic Truth that has never been and just has to be recognised and embodied formally (and therefore I think constitutionally, because a treaty seems even more late-in-the-day)…(drum roll!) …that the real original people here are the Ab-origines.
It is a declaration of principle from which right action can follow, it cannot yet be a detailed policy.
In other European settled countries like Canada and New Zealand treaties recognised who/what preceded them and they thereby accord at least a level of necessary status to First Nations people, but here, where there never was any treaty, my sense is that we have continually hanging over us a deeply buried (and guilty) wish to disappear the indigenous people… But ‘terra nullius’ it never was and never will be… Enough of us must come clean to create the possibility of a future together on a true, not false, foundation. This is a big step further than an apology from one politician in one Party, a referendum about the importance of the indigenous voice with the country behind it carries much more weight.
My perspective is no doubt partly formed by my own origins as a white African of English settler parents (also WWII veterans, by the way!) - born and brought up in East Africa and living there till I was ready to leave home. When independence came, it was better that we settlers didn’t seek a future in that country and I was in fact brought up to appreciate that that day would come. I reached for sunny Australia thinking it a place where indigenous people were successfully sharing their country, only to find the shoe was completely on the other foot. Aborigines are amazed that I seek them out to talk to and that I’ve learned some of the local language. They even say ‘why are you speaking to me?’ and I am shocked. I grew up with black people, they are part of my humanity, and my soul insists that everyone’s dignity is of ultimate importance, and a country’s stature cannot be any bigger than its heart and respect for everybody, and essential truths.
I’ve said enough and forgive me if my passion about this is equal to my passion about harm from vaccinations. I’m following through, though, because the subject was raised in a way that drew this out.
Hi Fiona - we do not need to agree on everything and I appreciate your point of view. I haven't gone into this issue in depth, but I do know that there are many stars in the indigenous community (Anthony Mundine, Jacinta Price etc) who are opposed to The Voice. I also am concerned, as I said, that something as serious and permanent as an amendment to our constitution could be voted on without all of the details being publicly available. Why the secrecy? I would love to know more.
Hi Meryl -- yes I acknowledged in what I wrote that there are people opposed within the indigenous community and I wouldn't expect them to be any more unanimous than we are in our own communities. I believe, though, that their disagreements are more about how to go about things rather than the essential substance of the matter.
As I was also saying in my post, I see no secrecy or hidden agenda (and I'm sensitised to those as so many of us are now). I believe that there's an oppositional view, however, that is making out there IS 'something else behind the curtain', and that purposeful obfuscation saddens me.
The point is none of us know everything because the whole procedure has only just begun -
- The Senate has just passed a bill to amend Australia’s referendum machinery (Mar 23)
- Later this year, we will all receive in the post pamphlets that contain 'Yes' and 'No' arguments, with every bias permitted it seems, and also a more neutral civic education campaign that the government will fund
I see things the straightforward way this author does -- "The Voice is not a third Chamber of Parliament. The Voice won’t cause anyone to lose the backyard. It won’t elevate Indigenous voices in Canberra above that of the Parliament and the sky won’t fall in. What it will do is enshrine Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander perspectives into legislation that affects Indigenous Peoples in this Country. (Kris Rallah-Baker)
I think the more direct and earlier input into legislation of First Nations people will actually prevent millions of dollars being spent on mis-directed policies they themselves don’t want; it will allow them an appropriate and more powerful say in their own affairs; and placing their Voice in the constitution will ensure that recognition of the need for direct involvement in legislation of their affairs will not be at the whim of every new government and policy shift. I reckon that will be a g-r-e-a-t step forward for a-l-l of us.
I get what you’re saying, Angela...but ANZAC Day is one day we must never stop “celebrating”. We might be living in a very different country...although what we have right now, and for the last three years is the very thing our parents and grandparents were fighting AGAINST, and tens of thousands of ours alone gave their lives for!!!
We must never lose sight of that.
And we must ram it down the throats of those who would continue with the tyranny. I think the Aussie Spirit needs awakening!!
I spent many an ANZAC Dawn Service in the choir - and I never considered it a 'celebration' but a commemoration - 'lest we forget'. A person must have known (in order to not forget), whereas most have no idea what ANZAC was about. It was a senseless slaughter - at ANZAC Cove - where the UK military sent Aussie and New Zealand troops onto those beaches as cannon fodder. I have zero respect for either the UK or US governments and especially their military, given what they have done and are doing re C-19. Have you watched yesterday's interview with Dr Sherri Tenpenny on Dr Toni's CHD Solutions program?
Do you r-e-a-l-l-y think the "Aboriginal Voice referendum seems intended to steal even more from the original Australians" ? I wonder why. I'm afraid I can't be with you there if you do as I think it illustrates an unwarranted fear and is far from the real intention of the Voice. There's no 'stealing' here, we just need to soothe any fearful hearts and expand them....
Yes, I really do. And the fact that we are meant to vote on something as important as a constitutional amendment without access to the full details really makes me mistrust what is actually going on here.
Here are a couple of things to read/see. I don't believe all is what we've been told.
One problem with that, Meryl...most First Nations people don’t understand that, and because of their nature, are mostly being ridden over, roughshod, by State Police, and paid mercenaries.
Sadly, the powers that be think that they have the upper hand, as they have since 1973! But, gradually, the truth of our Constitution’s usurpment - I just made up a new word - is coming out. Most people would be horrified to know what has been done to us, and it’s about time they were told!
We cannot be sure what is intended, as we do not know the wording to be used. This referendum is a huge waste of money; only those sucked in by the narrative and propaganda will vote “Yes”! The devil is in the detail.
Our Constitution ALREADY covers our First Nations peoples, in the first three words:
“We The People”!! That covers all of us, no matter where we came from!
No, I specifically said that was not my intention. What I am proposing is to take that day to consider the REAL sacrifices made by the ANZACS and to hold those near and dear to us close on that day and remember what we have to lose if we do not protect our rights. We need to manifest the future we want and we can do that by remembering why our freedom is so important.
Some of the aboriginals in Western Australia had precisely that genetic trait - an indication that the Dutch sailors had indeed been here and done that before Cook
That is TOO funny! For the first time, I used Substack to generate an image - not sure if it used AI or if it just searched for it? But I did not notice that at all! Good eyes there, Lyn! LOL
Thanks Meryl and Lyn for your responses. I guess we may have to agree to differ.
I felt the need to speak up, though, because the post seemed to assume I had a similar view on this other topic when I joined this site because it focussed on issues of vaccination.
Hearing what you both say, it makes me see we must be wary of seeing ‘narratives’ and (forgive me!) ‘conspiracies’ everywhere even when they’re not there… because we have ourselves become traumatised as a result of our recent experiences. I guess everything is a narrative, but on this issue I think what we see has pretty straightforward differences of outlook and approach. I don’t think the indigenous leaders, people, or us, are being conned or usurped (though I’d be interested to hear examples of how if you think they/we are, ). This issue has been going on so l-o-n-g and it’s just coming to a head in this particular form at this particular stage in the struggle.
I looked with interest at the links you sent, Meryl. No longer reading/watching MSM, I haven’t followed discussion (for the past 2 years) about the Voice, but the differing views both inside and outside the Aboriginal community seem pretty much as expected. Mundine has reason to think a treaty could be more effective, but this has been discussed amongst the indigenous community for ages and I think he’s in a minority, or at least the Voice is what has emerged out of the debate as the most achievable in today’s political climate and therefore the important foot in the door to start walking a new path. Their leaders have emerged though struggle and debate more arduous I reckon than any our representatives go through, and if they hear this is worth going for and working with, I’m with them. They’ve at least got some political leverage and nous.
Obviously some of white Australia dismisses and is fearful of it. It is confronting for all, but I feel it’s an educative and necessary process that could help Australia grow in stature and self respect if we can just let go of grunges and take it on board straightforwardly, the way we are being asked to. There’s a basic Truth that has never been and just has to be recognised and embodied formally (and therefore I think constitutionally, because a treaty seems even more late-in-the-day)…(drum roll!) …that the real original people here are the Ab-origines.
It is a declaration of principle from which right action can follow, it cannot yet be a detailed policy.
In other European settled countries like Canada and New Zealand treaties recognised who/what preceded them and they thereby accord at least a level of necessary status to First Nations people, but here, where there never was any treaty, my sense is that we have continually hanging over us a deeply buried (and guilty) wish to disappear the indigenous people… But ‘terra nullius’ it never was and never will be… Enough of us must come clean to create the possibility of a future together on a true, not false, foundation. This is a big step further than an apology from one politician in one Party, a referendum about the importance of the indigenous voice with the country behind it carries much more weight.
My perspective is no doubt partly formed by my own origins as a white African of English settler parents (also WWII veterans, by the way!) - born and brought up in East Africa and living there till I was ready to leave home. When independence came, it was better that we settlers didn’t seek a future in that country and I was in fact brought up to appreciate that that day would come. I reached for sunny Australia thinking it a place where indigenous people were successfully sharing their country, only to find the shoe was completely on the other foot. Aborigines are amazed that I seek them out to talk to and that I’ve learned some of the local language. They even say ‘why are you speaking to me?’ and I am shocked. I grew up with black people, they are part of my humanity, and my soul insists that everyone’s dignity is of ultimate importance, and a country’s stature cannot be any bigger than its heart and respect for everybody, and essential truths.
I’ve said enough and forgive me if my passion about this is equal to my passion about harm from vaccinations. I’m following through, though, because the subject was raised in a way that drew this out.
Hi Fiona - we do not need to agree on everything and I appreciate your point of view. I haven't gone into this issue in depth, but I do know that there are many stars in the indigenous community (Anthony Mundine, Jacinta Price etc) who are opposed to The Voice. I also am concerned, as I said, that something as serious and permanent as an amendment to our constitution could be voted on without all of the details being publicly available. Why the secrecy? I would love to know more.
Hi Meryl -- yes I acknowledged in what I wrote that there are people opposed within the indigenous community and I wouldn't expect them to be any more unanimous than we are in our own communities. I believe, though, that their disagreements are more about how to go about things rather than the essential substance of the matter.
As I was also saying in my post, I see no secrecy or hidden agenda (and I'm sensitised to those as so many of us are now). I believe that there's an oppositional view, however, that is making out there IS 'something else behind the curtain', and that purposeful obfuscation saddens me.
The point is none of us know everything because the whole procedure has only just begun -
- The Senate has just passed a bill to amend Australia’s referendum machinery (Mar 23)
- Later this year, we will all receive in the post pamphlets that contain 'Yes' and 'No' arguments, with every bias permitted it seems, and also a more neutral civic education campaign that the government will fund
See: https://theconversation.com/the-referendum-rules-have-been-decided-what-does-this-mean-for-the-voice-201372
About what the question is... see: https://theconversation.com/we-now-know-exactly-what-question-the-voice-referendum-will-ask-australians-a-constitutional-law-expert-explains-202143
I see things the straightforward way this author does -- "The Voice is not a third Chamber of Parliament. The Voice won’t cause anyone to lose the backyard. It won’t elevate Indigenous voices in Canberra above that of the Parliament and the sky won’t fall in. What it will do is enshrine Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander perspectives into legislation that affects Indigenous Peoples in this Country. (Kris Rallah-Baker)
I think the more direct and earlier input into legislation of First Nations people will actually prevent millions of dollars being spent on mis-directed policies they themselves don’t want; it will allow them an appropriate and more powerful say in their own affairs; and placing their Voice in the constitution will ensure that recognition of the need for direct involvement in legislation of their affairs will not be at the whim of every new government and policy shift. I reckon that will be a g-r-e-a-t step forward for a-l-l of us.
Let's not celebrate any day - until this war on humanity is fought and won.
I get what you’re saying, Angela...but ANZAC Day is one day we must never stop “celebrating”. We might be living in a very different country...although what we have right now, and for the last three years is the very thing our parents and grandparents were fighting AGAINST, and tens of thousands of ours alone gave their lives for!!!
We must never lose sight of that.
And we must ram it down the throats of those who would continue with the tyranny. I think the Aussie Spirit needs awakening!!
I spent many an ANZAC Dawn Service in the choir - and I never considered it a 'celebration' but a commemoration - 'lest we forget'. A person must have known (in order to not forget), whereas most have no idea what ANZAC was about. It was a senseless slaughter - at ANZAC Cove - where the UK military sent Aussie and New Zealand troops onto those beaches as cannon fodder. I have zero respect for either the UK or US governments and especially their military, given what they have done and are doing re C-19. Have you watched yesterday's interview with Dr Sherri Tenpenny on Dr Toni's CHD Solutions program?
No, Angela, I haven’t. I must look it up. Brilliant woman!
Do you r-e-a-l-l-y think the "Aboriginal Voice referendum seems intended to steal even more from the original Australians" ? I wonder why. I'm afraid I can't be with you there if you do as I think it illustrates an unwarranted fear and is far from the real intention of the Voice. There's no 'stealing' here, we just need to soothe any fearful hearts and expand them....
Yes, I really do. And the fact that we are meant to vote on something as important as a constitutional amendment without access to the full details really makes me mistrust what is actually going on here.
Here are a couple of things to read/see. I don't believe all is what we've been told.
https://www.cis.org.au/commentary/opinion/push-for-a-voice-to-parliament-is-a-bureaucratic-power-grab-to-give-indigenous-australians-rights-they-already-have/
This is 3 years old but raises some really excellent questions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y2nk2a4H_E
One problem with that, Meryl...most First Nations people don’t understand that, and because of their nature, are mostly being ridden over, roughshod, by State Police, and paid mercenaries.
Sadly, the powers that be think that they have the upper hand, as they have since 1973! But, gradually, the truth of our Constitution’s usurpment - I just made up a new word - is coming out. Most people would be horrified to know what has been done to us, and it’s about time they were told!
We cannot be sure what is intended, as we do not know the wording to be used. This referendum is a huge waste of money; only those sucked in by the narrative and propaganda will vote “Yes”! The devil is in the detail.
Our Constitution ALREADY covers our First Nations peoples, in the first three words:
“We The People”!! That covers all of us, no matter where we came from!
100%!
Plus, why would we put any trust at all in those who have killed and injured us and taken our rights away?
Are you proposing to use ANZAC day to protest vaccines?
No, I specifically said that was not my intention. What I am proposing is to take that day to consider the REAL sacrifices made by the ANZACS and to hold those near and dear to us close on that day and remember what we have to lose if we do not protect our rights. We need to manifest the future we want and we can do that by remembering why our freedom is so important.
Point taken my mistake for not reading properly.
No worries at all. :-)
Meryl, you need to check the picture and have it edited again. People don’t usually have five fingers (as well as a thumb) on one hand. 💞
Some of the aboriginals in Western Australia had precisely that genetic trait - an indication that the Dutch sailors had indeed been here and done that before Cook
That is TOO funny! For the first time, I used Substack to generate an image - not sure if it used AI or if it just searched for it? But I did not notice that at all! Good eyes there, Lyn! LOL